Is He Having a Laugh?

According to the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, the government is God's appointed agent on earth, and each of us owes it allegiance and obedience. If that's so--and I for one don't believe either part of that statement--I'd like some believer to explain what God had in mind when he arranged things so that one of the two major-party clowns running for president will be elected in November.

Is He having a laugh?

Comments

  1. AnonymousAugust 26, 2020 at 8:09 AM

    I'm assuming that you're referring to the Romans 13 verse where Paul says "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities." I, for one, don't accept that Paul was referring to the civil government. I see it as Paul referring to a higher authority. Paul's entire ministry was in defiance of the civil government authorities, and Jesus was an enemy of the state, so it seems a stretch to me that Paul would tell the followers of Jesus to obey the same government that executed Jesus and many of His followers. It seems to me that this chapter has been interpreted for political purposes since the time of Constantine. The Libertarian Christian Institute has some interesting discussions regarding Romans 13, if you're interested. I'm not a believer, but they are good libertarians and I have gained from listening to their perspective. I would highly recommend "Jesus Is An Anarchist" by James Redford. A long article, but well worth the time.

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    1. JoeAugust 26, 2020 at 9:30 AM

      I think you'll have to dig more into the Hebrew part of the Bible, because Romans isn't part of that.

      Delete
  2. Sheldon RichmanAugust 26, 2020 at 9:23 AM

    Thanks for the information. I have to wonder, though, what "Render into Caesar" was intended to convey.

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    1. JoeAugust 26, 2020 at 9:34 AM

      But "Render unto Caesar" is something that Jesus said, not part of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). ???

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    2. JoeAugust 26, 2020 at 9:42 AM

      Strange, when I first read your post, I only saw "According to the Hebrew Bible" and didn't see "and the New Testament", but it is there now.

      Delete
    3. Sheldon RichmanAugust 26, 2020 at 10:09 AM

      I was not implying that these were in the Hebrew Bible. I was responded to Anon.

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    4. JoeAugust 26, 2020 at 1:10 PM

      I'm sorry Sheldon. When I read the post, I thought I read the following: "According to the Hebrew Bible, the government is God's appointed agent on earth", i.e., I didn't see or read "and New Testament" (I guess I just overlooked it). So the question that remains is: where in the Old Testament does it say something like that about government?

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  3. AnonymousAugust 26, 2020 at 11:05 AM

    Jesus said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." Notice that He never said what actually belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God. He also never said to pay the temple taxes or not to pay the temple taxes. He probably would have been killed if He had said either one. He was responding to a trap set by his enemies, so I see this as a very cunning response on His part. This verse shouldn't be used to make the case that Christians should pay taxes to the government, as has been attempted many times.

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    1. JoeAugust 26, 2020 at 1:22 PM

      As I recall, the implication of "what actually belongs to Caesar" is the coin with Caesar's image, which was what was shown to Jesus, so it *can* be interpreted as "return the coin to Caesar" and stretched in the sense of tax payments. But I find this all preposterous, because (if he lived), he wasn't speaking in English, so this is a second-hand account of something he may spoken in Aramaic (or something like that) and that was first recorded in ancient Greek.

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    2. AnonymousAugust 26, 2020 at 3:43 PM

      Since Jesus was being set up I don't think it's right to assign any particular meaning to His reply, except that He outfoxed His enemies.

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    3. Sheldon RichmanAugust 26, 2020 at 5:08 PM

      This assumes much that is disputed.

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    4. AnonymousAugust 26, 2020 at 8:33 PM

      Most of the bible is disputed. I'm just disputing the idea that this verse amounts to Jesus saying that we have a moral obligation to pay whatever taxes the government demands we pay. And I'm giving you my reasons.

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  4. Sheldon RichmanAugust 26, 2020 at 1:27 PM

    I'm going to leave biblical interpretation to others since it's well known that if you seek (for some specific meaning) you will find. According to biblical accounts, the kings of Israel and Judah were regarded as God's agents.

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    1. JoeAugust 26, 2020 at 4:44 PM

      On the fist item: Thou art wise.
      However on the second, I just looked at David Boaz' _The Libertarian Reader_ (1997) which quotes I Samuel 8 (pp. 5-6). To paraphrase quickly, the elders of Israel asked Samuel for a king and he asked the Lord, who had a long list of not very commendable things that the king would to the people (including taking a tenth of their sheep), but the people "refused to obey the voice of Samuel", so in the end the Lord gave in and told Samuel to "make them a king". Very entertaining!

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    2. Sheldon RichmanAugust 26, 2020 at 5:07 PM

      David Solomon, Josiah etc. are like saints.

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    3. AnonymousAugust 26, 2020 at 8:24 PM

      I Samuel 8 is entertaining. I don't think that the Lord gave in as much as He recognized that the people of Israel had rejected Him as their king and was going to let them hang by their own rope, even though He warned them what would happen.

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  5. Sheldon RichmanAugust 26, 2020 at 1:57 PM

    Didn't the prophet tell the Judahites to be good citizens in exile?

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